SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back to the Fertility Suite Podcast, Series 3, where we're bringing the Fertility Experts to you so you can make the most informed educative choices about your fertility. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Fertility Suite Podcast. And joining us today, we have Emma Haslem, and Emma is the founder of a company called Your IVF Abroad. So Emma, I'm going to hand straight over to you. We're going to be talking about double donation today. But do you want to just tell our listeners first of all a little bit about yourself and your company and how you came to found your IVF Abroad?

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yeah, hello. Thanks, Rachel. Thanks for having me back on the podcast. So yeah, my name's Emma Haslim, and I'm founder of a company called Your IVF Abroad. But the whole reason how that happened was through my own journey with infertility, as it is for many people who work in this space. Trying to cut the story down to a shorter, potted version. My husband and I struggled to get pregnant and we found out that we would need IVF. We didn't qualify for fertility treatment on the NHS due to my BMI at that time. Although, had I lived a few miles down the road, we would have done because I was sent away to lose a lot of weight, which I did. But then unfortunately the rules in our area had changed, and it still meant we didn't qualify. So we wasted quite a lot of time and effort and energy, and in an area that actually was nothing to do with the reason why we couldn't get pregnant. But anyway, so at that point we knew we needed to have private fertility treatment, and we looked in the UK and we just didn't really feel a gel with any of the UK clinics that we spoke to, and we found it was very, it felt very conveyor belt-like, very expensive, and we had a very low chance of things working. And I'm not quite sure at what point we decided to look abroad. I'm presuming I probably got served adverts via Google and started to have a look at things. And we've done quite a lot of travelling, have Adam and I, my husband, and so we kind of weren't averse necessarily to the idea. But back then it was something that people were not doing as much, we're certainly not talking about, and it felt a very scary prospect. But we knew from having a very quick look that our money was gonna stretch further, and we'd moved in with parents after we'd got married, we'd saved up some money, and that's obviously a huge privilege. But once that money had gone, that was it. We couldn't live with our parents, nor did we want to, bless them, forever. So we decided to go abroad, and we did have a we had a very good clinical experience. We had no idea what we were doing, but we ended up having double donation. They the all three clinics abroad mentioned it to us. None of the UK clinics mentioned it to us. We didn't even know it was a thing, but they all sort of said, We'll support you if you want to go down the owner and sperm route, but we really feel like it's it's just not going to work, which was very hard to hear, but also very I like the transparency and the upfrontness of that, and so did my husband. So we went through our own journey, and eventually we had our son, who is now seven, can't believe it. And as a result of that journey, we really wanted people to know a few things. One, there's this option of going abroad that you might not have, you know, know as an option, but also you need to absolutely know what you are doing, and you need the right information to make informed decisions for yourself. And there was lots of things that we didn't know and we should have known. And so trying to just give people that and and give them that step-by-step guidance because having fertility treatment, as you know, is very stressful. And then you add in going abroad when you don't know what you're doing, and you're just sort of going on a wing and a prayer that it's going to be all right, that adds a massive level of stress that you just don't need. But we we looked for support and it didn't, it didn't exist. So when you know, about a year after I finished my maternity leave, we decided that that's what we were doing. We'd found your IVF abroad, so founded the company back in December 2019. And then since then, I've helped over 200 people all around the world with lots of things from gynee procedures to advanced testing to fertility treatment, like IVF, IUI, donation, egg donation, sperm donation, and double donation.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

That's amazing, Emma. Like you really have done such a wonderful thing. I think exactly like you said, IVF is overwhelming enough. Add in going abroad, already that's a whole nother level of complexity and logistics to think about. But let's talk about the donation side of things. Like you then in add in double donation, that's a whole load of other things to consider. So, how did you navigate that? Like, obviously, that must have come as you know, a bit of a shock, but also welcome news at the same time that you were able to start your family and there was a path you could take. Like, how did you start to navigate that whole process?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, I mean, it was a shock, but do you know what? And it might everybody's different in terms of how they feel about these kind of things. But for Adam and I, we just suddenly felt hope after feeling so hopeless. You know, we were told our chances were between three and five percent with IVF with our own egg and sperm. So very, you know, very low chance. And we also knew we had this pot of money, and then when it had gone, it had gone. So for somebody to turn around and say, first of all, it's nothing to do with your weight, absolutely categorically not, after blaming myself for so long, was just like, oh, okay. And a path forward after being stuck in this horrible limbo of, you know, waiting for an NHS appointment and then getting one and being told it's your weight, go away and lose the weight, and then doing that, and then, oh no, well, actually, now you need to be a different weight. But if you live down the road, you we would treat you, and it was just all very weight focused. And I was blaming myself, and my husband was blaming himself because he had a higher BMI, and then to be told it's nothing to do with your BMI, like you're fine, was a relief. And also just for someone to say there's this option that nobody else had mentioned before, which I still can't quite get my head around why it wasn't mentioned by UK clinics. And I wonder whether I know that at times and certain clinics can struggle with finding donors and things like that, particularly on the egg donation side of things, or maybe the clinics we were talking to didn't offer donation. So, again, that comes down to that kind of personalised clinic bit, but I didn't know what I was looking for, so just kind of had a few consultations with local-ish clinics and and went from there. So, to be told that was hard in terms of knowing that you know, in terms of genetically, we wouldn't have our own child. But honestly, I can hand on heart say that for us, that wasn't a big deal, and I'm not minimising other people who may feel that is a big deal, but for us it wasn't. And we had looked at things like adoption and we'd we'd we'd really researched that route. So I think we were already open to alternative paths to parenthood, but we didn't know that this one existed. And I think the fact that I knew that I would get to be able to, if I got pregnant, to be pregnant, carry a child, and if I was lucky, give, you know, give birth to a child was quite an important thing for us, well for me in particular. And it just felt like wow, we've got hope. And to go from a three to five percent chance to doctors saying, you know, you're looking at between probably 60 and 75% chance, they were like structurally, there's nothing wrong. You know, we see you as really great candidates for this, and so I think we just felt hope, but then I can't say we sort of felt confusion because we didn't really know what to ask, and we didn't know what we didn't know. It's only since then I now have learned so much about it because I think you're right, like I now know things work differently in different countries. I now know that things aren't done ethically everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

You only know what you know, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah, and yeah, and you don't always know what questions to ask if you've never thought about something before. And we and also we were very just excited that at last somebody is gonna treat us, it's not because we're overweight, and suddenly actually, you know, from a numbers perspective, is probably going to work based on our predicted chances of success with the money that we've got.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

And that was amazing to hear a massive difference in the predicted outcome to go from 3 to 5% to 60 to 70 percent is huge. Of course, you would be excited, and like you said, given that hope that you could start your family. I think something you touched on is going back a little bit, is like, why did the UK clinics not mention this? And I think that's why we really wanted to talk about this on the podcast because double donation is not something that some people even on know anything about, it's not even on their radar as an option. So, you know, what's in terms of like what advice you would give to people, it like how to have this conversation with your clinic, or what sort of situation would you want to have this conversation? And if you are with a clinic in the UK and they're not talking about it, or they do talk about it and say to you, we can't do that, what would your then advice on next steps would be? That's a huge question.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

No, I know what you're saying though. I think if it's not being mentioned and it's something that you're open to and you want to learn more about, I think it's you know it's not being afraid to ask your clinic about it. If they say they don't offer it, I but then aren't saying to you, or you don't feel like they're having an honest conversation around it, then it might be time to get some of their opinions elsewhere. Because I suppose what I'm saying is you just need to know that if they don't offer it, if they're saying you're not at that point, that it's genuinely because you're not at that point, which maybe is true, but if they don't also, if they don't offer it, then I suppose it's just having it in the back of your head. You can have a conversation with another clinic. Yes, it may cost you the money of the consultation, but you know, you can do that independently. You don't have to leave you know up and leave your existing clinic to go and have a separate conversation. In fact, I'm working with somebody at the moment who has a clinic in the UK and she's been she's been messed around around egg donation, they've wasted a lot of her time, and they can't actually give her what it is that she that she's she wants. So, but but but before that, before she actually got to that point when they're messing around, she wanted to start to talk to some other clinics because she didn't want to waste any more time. So that would be my advice would be to have those conversations. You are the client, ask the questions, and if you if they don't offer it and you have the feeling that maybe actually that could be our next step and you're open to that, then it's worth discussing that, I think, elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Right. And like you said, you're gonna pay for the cost of a consultation, but that cost versus a whole round of IVF that might not work, you know. I think if you said to most people, if you can improve your chance of success by that huge statistic that we talked about, you know, the cost of a consultation at what sort of 250 to 300 pounds is well worth it, right? For a second.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, and that would be a UK cost if you were looking abroad, you wouldn't be paying anywhere near that for a consultation. In fact, it might even be free. But yeah, absolutely, if it's something that you are open to, then you potentially, and I've had again, I've had clients where they've said to me, My clinics never mentioned it like they never did to us. And you I have always made myself think, is it because they don't, you know, they don't do donation? Is that why it's not been mentioned? It does make you think like had had Adam and I had Owen Egg and known sperm IVF in the UK, we would not have our son because the money would have all gone on one round of IVF. Now it took us three transfers of double donation. Now it has come out later on that I've got an autoimmune disease. I think it was probably bubbling away in the background. And on our third cycle, they'd said to us, if this one doesn't work, which was free by the way, if this one doesn't work, then we need to get you in with an immunologist. But what we're going to do for this protocol is we're going to add a very small dose of steroid in there because that may make a difference. Now, that was the one where I conceived and then had our son. Now, that may be nothing to do with the PRIDIS alone, but also it might find out. So we kind of had a path forward because that particular clinic gave a three the third round for free because that's how confident they were in, you know, the prediction that I would then, you know, get clinically pregnant. And then I did and went on to have a baby. But you know, it didn't happen the first time. And I think the first time it didn't happen, I was like, it's okay, because you know, it must be just that we're in that 25%, 35% this time. When it didn't happen the second time, I was like, oh, I was expecting it to happen. But just the odds, you know, thinking about it from a logistics point of view and a numbers point of view, just so much more likely to happen. And I think, you know, some people don't want donation and I'm not open to it, and that's absolutely fine, that's completely up to them. But some people don't even know that that isn't even an option, particularly double donation, as you said, Rachel, because I just don't feel like it's talked about or mentioned as much. And I I'm not I'm not sure why.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

So, what are the things that people who are considering double donation need to consider? Like, what are the complexities involved? What sort of things do you need to think about before you even make that final decision about going ahead with double donation?

SPEAKER_01 13:21

I think what's useful for people, I don't think it would have necessarily been needed for us, but I think what is probably useful for people is just to work out how you both feel about that and how you will feel, depending on how a child feels about that, in the future, and are you going to be honest? Like the research shows that if you can be honest with children from a very young age in an age-appropriate way and have the conversations, you know, lightly and often, that is, you know, a proven way of making it easier for them to digest like the news and things. But I think you need to make sure you're thinking through sort of how you both feel about it, how a child may feel about it, and that may change over time, whether or not you want to go down the anonymous donation route, which means that a child, you know, who is born as a result of donation will only be able to access the information that you've been given from a fertility clinic about, you know, sort of simple details, usually around things like age, ethnicity, weight, height, sometimes some extra things as well, depending on the country if we're thinking about going abroad, or whether actually you want known donation. Known donation means that any child born as a result of donation from the age of 18 can go to whatever the official body is in that country that looks after these things, and to be able to find out the details of a donor, such as name and address, doesn't guarantee that the donor would want to see them, doesn't guarantee the donor still lives there, doesn't guarantee the donor's alive, but you know it's you might be have more information on that donor as well that you can share. So I think you've got to see where you fit within that. I think if you are conflicted, going for something like donor conception counselling would be really useful. And then you can work through with the specialist counsellor those feelings before you go ahead and commit to something like this. For us, it was a very simple yes, but for other people it's not, and that's absolutely fine. I think again, if you're going to go abroad, you need to be thinking about the laws in different countries and how clinics recruit, screen, and select donors, how they pay them. Are they, you know, is this a money-making operation or are they just paid fair expenses? I think that's very different. And again, you've got to work out how you feel about these things, but it's about making sure that ethically donors are treated well and in line with whatever your ethics are, too. So that's that's very, very important. Like I only work in countries where you know people are not being exploited and they're only being paid fair expenses because I believe that that's important, where there are very strict recruitment, screening, selection processes as well. So you need to understand how all of that works to make sure that you're happy.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

So just clarify, Emma. So the the laws are different in varying countries and the UK in regards to anonymity and known donors. So the first port of call would be to work out where, like you said, where you sit with that, and then that will help you understand where you might need to start looking. Yes. And then you also have other things to take into account in terms of how how the donor is paid and screened. And again, that can vary country to country as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, so it's learning about the laws in that country, and it's learning about, you know, any child bonds a result of donation, are they legally your child? What a clinic has to do by law or doesn't have to do by law in a country, and then how a clinic also then puts that into practice in terms of that recruitment, screening, selection, and payment process. And it's a massive minefield, I'm not going to lie to you, which is why it's something I now help people with. Um, I that did not even cross my mind because I just I didn't know what I didn't know. So, part of what my work is if somebody comes to me and they're completely conflicted, then I will I will politely send them away in the direction of a donor conception counsellor because ethically it would not be right of me to be like, well, come on, make your decision, and then we'll get go in. That's like, yeah, they have to come to that themselves. There are some countries that will offer both, so that's helpful too. But it's just that's kind of I mean, it's a massive topic, but that the these are some of the things that people need to understand. And you know, there are certain countries as well where perhaps where they've got high levels of poverty and perhaps you know, less strict regulation around this kind of thing. So you've got to be aware of perhaps where people may be being exploited, which obviously nobody wants to be a part of that either, but also, you know, the other thing to kind of consider as well is with whichever decision you make, you have to be, I think, open to you don't know how a child born to resort a donation is going to feel, and you can get yourself really scared and worried about that. And I've had moments about that, but then now I'm through the other side of he's here. I don't think about it on a daily basis like I used to. It felt like much bigger and heavier at the beginning and more worries. But then I've also, I also think to myself, now I'm at the other side as a parent, I don't know how he's going to feel. He's seven at the minute, he knows, he's known since he was two or three. And it comes up intermittently, and there will come up more in the future, I'm sure. And how much of a challenge that will be for us as a family, I don't know. But what I do know is however he feels, we will support him. And you know, I hope that it shows him how how much he is and was wanted, and without that wonderful parent past the parenthood, we would not have him, he wouldn't be part of our family. And I see it as somebody, some wonderful people who've supplied their genetics, and I'm not dismissing that side of things, but you know, we I'm the one that's grown him, we are the ones that have have brought him up. So we will we will meet him where he's at and accept with where he's at. And I think you can tie yourselves in knots about this, but I also rationalise when I know some people who have been, as far as I'm aware, conceived, you know, their parents are the genetic parents and they they can't stand the parents. So you can worry yourself about things that actually never happen. And there'll be challenges with children, whether or not you are genetically connected, there will be challenges. But I think it's just having these conversations to work out where you're at with it. But what I would say is don't let fear stop you. And at some point you have to make a decision, and it can feel very, very heavy. I know through a lot of particularly working with clients, it can feel like a very, very difficult decision to make. But it does, I think, from my experience and from you know, some of my clients who've gone on to have babies food donation, it definitely feels a lot lighter now. And I and I refuse to spend my time worrying about what if, because I think infertility took so many years away from us. I just want to enjoy him, yeah, you know, and thank goodness that that option existed. Thank goodness we didn't blow all our money on one round of ONEG and sperm IVF in the UK because that would have been it, we would not have been parents. And yeah, I just think how lucky are we? But I do think people need to just understand more. And I think if people understand more, it makes it easier for them to make a decision. It's when people don't understand, it can probably weigh on their minds even more. You've also got to consider things like if you are a person of colour, where you go. You've also got to consider which countries may have more eggs that you know are going to match you. We definitely have a problem here in the UK if people of colour can really struggle to find, you know, egg donors. The choice can be limited. There's definitely more choice by going abroad. There's certainly even more choice in anonymous countries because if you think about it, people are more willing to give away anonymously than they are through known donation. There's a you know, slightly higher cost when it comes to having known donation versus anonymous donation.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

So it's not talk. Sorry, Emma, I just want to talk a bit more about this because I think this is like really practical in terms of like what does this look like? So if someone was considering double donation, do the clinic, as in the fertility clinic, do they arrange this or do you need to go looking for eggs and sperm in separate companies yourself? Like, how does it actually work? I know it sounds like a really silly question, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

No, it doesn't. No, it's a it's a good question. So, in theory, in the right clinics, so clinics who have their own egg banks. Which lots of them do. Some of them also have internal sperm banks. Sometimes it needs to be an external sperm bank. But if it's the right clinic for like to match you for your type of donation, in theory, at least the egg donation would be in-house. They will then often have a sperm bank as well. But if they don't, they will either say we can accept sperm from any of the European sperm banks or they will link in with certain sperm banks and they will help you with that process. And that sperm bank will have to follow the rules of the laws in that country. So you can't just go to a sperm bank and think, well, I know it's anonymous in that country, but I'm going to pick known sperm because it all has to be done properly. So yes, sometimes people do have to do that. But there are quite a lot of clinics now have both egg and sperm donors. Or if they don't have enough of your particular sort of donation type, or you prefer to use an egg bank, then you could you know have that choice sometimes as well. So it kind of depends on the clinics. But in an ideal world, the egg donation would be something that is done in-house, certainly, as a minimum.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

And the egg donation, is that done at the time of the cycle? Like it are they done in sync with your cycle. So for example, someone would have their eggs collected in the same timing as your IV, like your transfer cycle. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Again, it depends. So sometimes the M those embryos are frozen already. So that would have to be a good match for you, though, for that to be an option. Or if we're doing like a fresh cycle example, then your donor donors would be found and they would run sort of side by side, and then you would go out and have have your transfer. So the embryos created should be then yours. Yeah. If you've got any over and above the embryos that you're having transferred, then they are your legally your embryos, and then you would go back for future transfers if if needed.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Amazing. So you talked a little bit about shortage. Is this a is this an issue, like either in the UK or abroad, in that it might be that you you kind of make this massive decision, and let's I think you talked a bit about the fear and things. Like I really just want to validate to people that it's probably really normal to be really fit. Yeah, huge decision. I feel like if you're not a bit worried, then you probably haven't thought about it hard enough in all honesty.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

You know, it's a huge you're probably not you're probably not informed enough, are you like we weren't? And and you might you might know though that you're okay with the donation bit as a result as a as a result, but you might not understand the things that you need to understand to make those informed decisions about where to go and and all the all the rest of it. So yeah, I think if you're not if you don't have questions, then it probably means that you you're not aware that there are things that you need to.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yeah, and thank you for sharing your story because I think just listening to that will be so helpful for people. It's a lovely heartwarming story, but I think there's also some really practical, helpful things in there. So yeah, this this kind of shortage, like, is could it be an issue where you could be all set to go and then you get to the clinic and they're like, actually, we haven't got any eggs, like we're short on donors.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, not abroad if you go to the I mean, obviously, by going abroad, we've got lots of different choices of clinics and countries, haven't we? And you know, it people aren't coming from other countries to the UK to have fertility treatment, but they're coming from all around the world to like mainland Europe, where I work within, for example. So they tend to have, you know, better supply of, but again, you know, you you might need to go to different countries depending on like if you're a person of colour, for example, or if you are particularly blonde with blue eyes or whatever, you know, there might need to be some thinking about. But yeah, I mean, I know in the UK that a lot of clinics link up actually with clinics abroad because they can't supply eggs. And one thing to be very acutely aware of here is I know because people come to me and they've mentioned a clinic's name abroad and they've told me how much their clinic has cost, has quoted them to yes, do their scans, yes, do their medication, and it can feel so much easier for people like I'm not knocking it, but let me be very clear, you'll be paying about double the amount that you need to by doing it in that way. And it doesn't have like if you work with someone like myself, I can make all of that stuff happen with you very easily anyway, and you know it's not going to cost you double the amount that it would by going through these clinics, so you see that happening a lot because they haven't got the the reserves of of egg donors, there's less choice in the UK. We just have it's it's non-anonymous. So if if you don't want to go down that route, then there isn't any any choice. And I think I suppose in countries where it is non-anonymous, and we're quite a small country really, then by by nature of that, you do have less pool of less donors, don't you? Yeah. But if you are a person of colour, like I've had people who said they've been sat on a waiting list for two years for an egg donor. Wow. And they've not realized that if they went abroad, that you know, I mean, I'm not saying you don't sometimes have to wait abroad, it might take four months sometimes to match people. Some clinics would never be able to match you, but if you know the right country to go to, the right clinics, then you can cut that time down. But yeah, I've had some poor people who've just been sat waiting, waiting on waiting lists, they've made this big decision and then they're like, great, we can't even do anything, and they're just back in limbo again. Or they've been told, yeah, it'll be a few months, it'll be another few months, it'll be another few months, and that's not that's not all right. You should be saying we can't match you.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Yeah, and just being honest and giving people like what you do, I guess, like informed education so they can make a decision. Yeah, I mean, we touched on costs, but I think you know, no one ever really wants to talk about money, right? It's such for British people, it's such an awkward topic, isn't it? But I think when it comes to fertility treatment, we have to talk about money because it's directly in line with ethics at the same time. And for a lot of people, exactly like yourself, you know, the pot had a line, you know, that it's not a bottomless pit. So, and and people have a budget. So, can we talk really honestly about sort of the sorts of savings you're gonna make going to Europe versus what you would spend over here and also factoring in travel costs because I think naturally people would have a tendency if they don't know much about going abroad for any sort of fertility treatment, you know, take even take donation off the table for a minute, you know, just going abroad for IVF, is the cost of travel and it's naturally scary for people to go, oh well that's just going to add thousands of pounds on. Like, can you talk us through a little bit through your experience and you know what you've learned from working with clients in this space?

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah, so if we're talking in general, so I if if I rocked up and gave you just definitive figures exactly, then I would be a liar. So, you know, I will try and answer your question as best I can, but it is very difficult to say because it depends on what somebody's treatment plan is. Yeah, it depends on how many trips to a clinic they might need or whether they're going to be able to do some of the bits and Bob's safe, for example. Let's say we're talking about the UK. I would say, in my experience, for nine out of nine out of ten people that I have worked with, even including flights and accommodation, they will save anything from a thousand pounds at the lowest end upwards for a cycle of IVF. Oh neg, IVF, okay. The the one out of ten person would be like my friend Laura, who had an NHS cycle with her wife Lindsay. They've got a little girl, and she has no fertility issues other than she's a lesbian. So she qualified in the UK for one of these very low-cost, nurse-led schemes that actually hardly anyone qualifies for, which is another bugbearer of mine, but anyway, for them, fantastic. No known fertility issues, had IVF on the NHS, worked once. Should we go abroad, Emma? No, of course you shouldn't, because you're gonna save money. Like, and they had treatment, she got pregnant and she's now had a second child. So they are the unicorns. Yeah. But for nine out of ten people, you will save at least a thousand pounds. I wouldn't want people just to go abroad though, just because of the cost savings, because there are some other like massive perks of going abroad in the right clinic, in the right country. But cost is, of course, a huge thing for people because the pot isn't for most people, you know, unlimited. When it comes to donation, I can up that figure massively. You know, we're talking about 50% savings, it is hugely cheaper, you know. And again, I know there's some people who have not myself because it was never mentioned to us, but people have come to me and said, this is how much it's going to cost at this clinic. And that's either linking in with the clinic abroad or not linking in. You know, in the UK, I I quite frequently hear people say between kind of 15 and 20k for a cycle of fresh sort of egg donation, double donation. You know, you're looking at half of that by going abroad. You know, flights, accommodation, things like that, you know, it would probably be less around 8 to 10k. So it's a massive, huge, huge, huge, huge saving. Well, that's that I am more confident to be able to kind of put the figures behind. But it also depends, doesn't it? It depends on which clinic you've gone to, what price they've told you. Have they given you the true cost of what it's actually going to cost you? Or is this, are we looking at a cost on a website? Because actually we know that's not the full cost. So it's so hard for me to answer the question. And I get people sometimes come to me and go, Well, I've seen this cost, and actually, we wouldn't save much by going abroad. And I'm like, Well, let me have a look. And I'm like, what's the cost for this? What's the cost for that? And they're like, Oh, we didn't know about that, which is not their fault. But I can see when people are looking, they might be like, doesn't look like I'm going to save that much. But actually, probably in reality, you will save a huge amount of money.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Um, when it comes to extra testing and extra procedures that might need to be done, just the basic cost of a scan or things like hysteroscopy, that there must be a huge saving there, right? And like you said, people don't know. And sometimes it's not even a case of them not knowing, it's just how the cycle pans out, like things crop up, and you might have to spend on a hysteroscopy before you have a transfer. Yeah, you're going to save.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

You don't know this. It's like when I give my clients and I match in some clinics, and let's say, for example, they're asking me for the cost of an IVF cycle. I will very much put what is and isn't included and what they can maybe expect some of the non-included costs to be. But I always say, until you've had your consultation and got your actual cost, like this should not be, this should be very, very on the nose for a cycle of IVF. And I've tried to think about things like, you know, does it include Ixy? Does it include freezing costs? Does it because I know some of the things that that are commonly left out of a baseline package price that they will will very likely need. So I put them in because I'd rather over cost than underinflate it. But until they've had a had a consultation, we don't know what their recommended treatment plan's going to be. So then it might be that actually you need X, Y, and Z. And to have had the extra stuff done in the UK kind of pumps it up even more. But I can see why when people look at a UK clinic's baseline cost and an overseas clinic spaceline cost, they might think, oh, add in flights and accommodation, it's not going to be that much. When the reality, you know, for example, every single UK consultation will probably cost you 250 quid. When you go abroad, you might not pay at all. You might pay once, and you might be looking at paying 150 quid once. They can really add up. Scanning, a lot of the clinics abroad don't charge for things like scans. In the UK, again, it's a few hundred quid. So all these little things, even things like getting your medication, if you don't buy it from a clinic in the UK, a lot of them are adding massive markups on medication. They're not telling you this, but you know, you've got to get your you've got to get your medication from them, or they'll say, okay, we will do your private prescription. And I spoke to somebody the other day who said she was quoted£250 by her current clinic to write them a private prescription, which is just, and I mean, I'm not saying they shouldn't charge to write a private prescription, but that is a lot of a lot of money. And so there's all these things that seep in that add up for people. When you go abroad, you've got the freedom of choice of where you're getting medication. You know, medication can cost people between£400 and at the very worst,£2,500 for a cycle of IVF. So if you can shop around for that, you can save loads of money. So it's all these things that add up in the UK.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

I think it's really important to talk about when we're talking about the UK as well, especially when you get into more complex IVF cycles in terms of perhaps things like donation, is that the regulate whilst the regulations around the clinical side of IVF are very clear, the regulations around transparency, around costs, are not really there. So it becomes very easy for things to be very different from clinic to clinic. Like one thing I always say is IVF is very different depending on where you go. And we're not just talking about the clinical side of things, we're talking about how things are costed up and presented to you as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also not sat here saying that when you go abroad, they're more transparent on this always, because they're not always. But it's about having that knowledge and that information and being able to look at costings and think, right, okay. You know, when you actually comparing, like you said, it can be very cleverly, things can be very cleverly packaged up. And we don't know what we don't know. And what I find happens to people, and it really upsets me, is that they will sign up with a clinic and then they get the horrible shock as they're going through the treatment, and they have to find this money that they hadn't banked on. And that's why when people come to me and they'll say, We're gonna save money, aren't we? And I'll say, Well, let's find out more about your situation so I can comment on that. And I'm always very honest that I can't tell them how much money they're gonna save. I can just, you know, like I've talked on this podcast, give those examples because I think it's super important that there is that transparency. But you know, lots of people do go abroad and save a shed load of money, but it's also about speed, it's also about customer service, yeah, potential. Donor, yeah. And it, but again, it's all got to be the right clinic for the right person or the right people because they're not all built the same, and they're not all ethical, and they're not all good.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

And that is abroad and in the UK, that's you know, and I think that's where the service that you offer really comes onto its own a little bit because why would you, as the average lay person going into a cycle of IVF, no matter where that is, why would you know any of this? Why why would would you be expected to know any of this? Like you'd have to research for months to really get the answers. So, yeah, using a company like yours is you know really offering, I think, a great service to people that are in this position. Just going back a little bit to talking about like double donation, I just like to touch on like screening. And we we know it's different depending on which country you're getting the donor from, but what sort of screening? Because I think naturally, if I was in this scenario, it I would worry a little bit about okay, what screening has taken place genetically and health-wise. Do you know anything about those sorts of side of things and how that differs?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

So, because I have, I mean, I work in an independent way, so I don't take any commission from fertility clinics, so I'm not a customer of the fertility clinics in a way they're sort of well, my clients are my clients and I'm on their side, but they have to supply me with the information things that I need. You know, I ask them lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of questions to get the right information to cut through the marketing stuff, and I'm like, yeah, but what about this and what about that? And that's come with time, right? That's come with experience. So I, as part of what I do, I will when I'm giving clients information on a particular clinic, I'll tell them about the laws in that country and about how things work. But then I'll also break down exactly what kind of how it works with the recruitment screening selection processes. What are they screening for in terms of some of your major genetic diseases, sexual health? Have they got the capacity to make an informed decision about becoming a donor? How are they paid? Are they being paid, or is this just, you know, fair expenses? So I dig right down into that so people can read that and go, okay, I can see that's massively thorough. And then I encourage people to obviously ask their own questions as well. And I give them like lists of questions that they might want to use when they're liaising with clinics to make sure that they're happy with a particular clinic in the way that they do things. Because yeah, I think we've got to be we've got to be very aware of you may have seen these hideous things on like TikTok for clinics in the States and stuff that are advertising with a designer handbag people to become an egg donor, which just makes me feel sick. Because I just think you know that is very different to it being an altruistic act that is through people paying, you know, expenses. I also think it can lead people down the exploitation route, particularly in countries where things where there's high levels of poverty and things. So I think you've got to it's always got to be country first and thinking about what countries you would be happy ethics-wise to have your and law-wise to have your treatment in. And then it's really drilling down with the fertility clinic to understand, you know, do they turn donors down? How did that how do they decide who somebody is a good, a good candidate? Have they donated before successfully? What is there a cap in that country on the amount of families that can be created, or is there a cap on the number of times that somebody can donate? I mean, it there's just just so much.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

That's what I'm thinking when you're talking. I'm like, wow, this is like so complex, and I don't even know how you like. I think you said sort of you know, your own ignorance was blissed to that degree, but like it would be if you nowadays we've got a lot more information at our fingertips, and I can really see how someone who might be considering this would just feel completely overwhelmed. Overwhelmed, yeah, yeah, like there is so much to consider. So thank you for breaking it all down and giving some really practical like information. What if you could give like one final sort of piece of advice or drawing on your own experience in terms of kind of what you wish you had known or done differently? What would your parting advice to our listeners kind of be?

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Oh well, I wish that I'd not accepted the wait thing as the answer and just accepted that that was the way it was. But I think when you've got a doctor, there is a power imbalance there, isn't there, saying that to you. You know, I wish I'd have asked more questions and been like, okay, can you explain why you think that instead of just accepting what people say? And but we do, don't we? Because it's like they're the doctors, they're meant to know. So it would be to ask questions, not to feel afraid of asking questions. You are a client at the end of the day, and and being careful where you get your information from as well, because obviously we now have AI, not everything is right and correct on AI. You know, we've got social media, we've got the internet. There is a lot of marketing out, there's a lot of absolute nonsense out there as well. And sometimes by trying to do it all yourself when you don't need to, like we had to because we couldn't find anybody to help us, you can stay stuck then in overwhelm. You know, sometimes uh researching and looking at information can just make us feel worse and feel stuck. So, you know, reaching out to try and get some help around this because very quickly you can then start to make those informed decisions about whatever's right for you. So it would be to ask questions and to be careful where you're getting your information from. And if you are feeling overwhelmed and stuck, then you know, reach out to myself or somebody like myself who can help you to work through this because you've got to, it's got to be the right information. You don't want somebody selling you into something, you want somebody who's gonna be like, right, these are your options, and this is what you need to know. And you decide actually what's right for you, not me.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Yeah, again, I just want to reiterate like how much of a valuable kind of service I think this is that you offer, because cutting through the noise just saves so much time and time, money, and emotional upset at the end of the day, I think.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Yeah, because it's just a time, such a time-based thing, isn't it? Less so if you're going down the donation route, but but it's still a time-based thing in that while you are stuck in this horrible limbo, it's it's stealing your life, it's stealing your time. Yeah, um, it's a horrible place to be, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 42:48

It's awful. Yeah, I mean, yeah, having been through, you know, not uh a same or the similar journey, but having had IVF, yeah, I completely understand that that time aspect and sort of the overwhelm. Thank you so much, Emma. As always, it's always a great chat with you. How can people get in touch with you? I will put everything in the episode notes, but just let our listeners know how they can find you and get in touch.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Sure. So you can get in touch with me at Instagram at yourivfabroad. My website is yourivfabroad.co.uk. Also, I've got some free training where you can start to learn a little bit more about going abroad for fertility treatment if that's useful for people who are maybe new to the idea or wanting to kind of learn what the highlights are, but also what the watch outs are as well. So I'll send you the link to that as well because I think that'll be useful for people. I've got my own podcast, which is Your IVF Abroad. No, it's not, it's IVF Abroad, which you'll find on all of your usual platforms, and I'll link that as well. And then I offer services from kind of a course through to full one to one, depending on what people need. So you can find all that information on my website, which I'll send you the link for.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

Brilliant. Thanks, Emma. And like I said, I'll pop all that in the episode notes. But thank you for joining us. Thank you. See you later.